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2006-01-06T15:27:11Z

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[FOSS-EDU-IN] CBSE syllabus इनबॉक्स

Venkatesh Hariharan
fci-l को
और विकल्प Jan 5 (1 दिन पहले)
I spoke to officials at CBSE and they informed me that the CBSE syllabus
for 2006-2007 has been made vendor neutral. The web site at
www.cbse.nic.in does not reflect this yet but they have promised me that
the new syllabus will be up soon.

This is a good way to start the new year. Will update everyone as soon
as the new syllabus is up on the web.

Regards,

Venky

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उत्तर देंअग्रेषित करेंVenkatesh को Gmail में आमंत्रित करें

Tejas Dinkar
FOSS-EDU-IN को
और विकल्प Jan 5 (1 दिन पहले)
Venkatesh Hariharan wrote:

>I spoke to officials at CBSE and they informed me that the CBSE syllabus
>for 2006-2007 has been made vendor neutral. The web site at
>www.cbse.nic.in does not reflect this yet but they have promised me that
>the new syllabus will be up soon.
>
>
Great Work Venky!!

But just one question.

I graduated from CBSE exactly 6 months ago. (Grade 12th)

The Syllabus was already fairly Vendor Neutral IIRC.

There were two main Sections:

C++
There was the odd 'getch()' or 'clrscr()' here and there, but I don't
believe it was too bad.

SQL
I did use some SQL client that was windows based, and connected to MS
Access, but in he exams the questions were all on SQL. ie, commands like
SELECT, INSERT ....

I think at best the `changes in syllabus` may be the removal of the
question:
name at least 3 functions declared in conio.h

It is the College Syllabus we Really Need to Target
Gja
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उत्तर देंअग्रेषित करें

Venkatesh Hariharan
FOSS-EDU-IN को
और विकल्प Jan 5 (1 दिन पहले)
On Thu, 2006-01-05 at 18:07 +0530, Tejas Dinkar wrote:
> Venkatesh Hariharan wrote:
>
> >I spoke to officials at CBSE and they informed me that the CBSE syllabus
> >for 2006-2007 has been made vendor neutral. The web site at
> >www.cbse.nic.in does not reflect this yet but they have promised me that
> >the new syllabus will be up soon.
> >
> >
> Great Work Venky!!

Thanks, Tejas. We did follow-up with CBSE and Ministry of HRD over the
last few months I am sure that there were others who chipped in.

>
> But just one question.
>
> I graduated from CBSE exactly 6 months ago. (Grade 12th)
>
> The Syllabus was already fairly Vendor Neutral IIRC.
>

Check the Informatics syllabus:

http://www.cbse.nic.in/curric~1/informatics%20.pdf

Out of 17 books prescribed, 12 are Visual Basic books!

Venky
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उत्तर देंअग्रेषित करेंVenkatesh को Gmail में आमंत्रित करें

Kushal Das
<kushaldas@gmail.com> FOSS-EDU-IN को
और विकल्प Jan 5 (1 दिन पहले)
On Thursday 05 January 2006 18:32, Venkatesh Hariharan wrote:

> Thanks, Tejas. We did follow-up with CBSE and Ministry of HRD over the
> last few months I am sure that there were others who chipped in.
>
> > But just one question.
> >
> > I graduated from CBSE exactly 6 months ago. (Grade 12th)
> >
> > The Syllabus was already fairly Vendor Neutral IIRC.
>
> Check the Informatics syllabus:
>
> http://www.cbse.nic.in/curric~1/informatics%20.pdf
>
> Out of 17 books prescribed, 12 are Visual Basic books!
>
> Venky
I am going back to Durgapur (West Bengal) on 17th of this month. There I will
talk to the schools (mainly CBSE ) about introducing FOSS . Except that VB
stuff all other things can easily be done using FOSS tools.
What you people say?

Regards,
Kushal
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उत्तर देंअग्रेषित करें

Rahul Sundaram
<sundaram@redhat.com> FOSS-EDU-IN को
और विकल्प Jan 5 (1 दिन पहले)
Hi

>I am going back to Durgapur (West Bengal) on 17th of this month. There I will
>talk to the schools (mainly CBSE ) about introducing FOSS . Except that VB
>stuff all other things can easily be done using FOSS tools.
>What you people say?
>
>
VB itself is being phased out in favor of VB.NET so thats not going to
be a good answer going forward. If you want capable cross platform RAD
tools, Python with a IDE like Eclipse etc might fit the bill especially
for introductory material to programming. Gambas is sort of of like VB
but I havent really looked into it much yet.
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उत्तर देंअग्रेषित करेंRahul को Gmail में आमंत्रित करें

प्रवीण् ए (Praveen A)
FOSS-EDU-IN को
और विकल्प Jan 5 (1 दिन पहले)

2006/1/5, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@redhat.com>:

VB itself is being phased out in favor of VB.NET so thats not going to
be a good answer going forward. If you want capable cross platform RAD
tools, Python with a IDE like Eclipse etc might fit the bill especially
for introductory material to programming. Gambas is sort of of like VB
but I havent really looked into it much yet.

I also think python is the way forward. We should try to get python into curriculam.

--
"GNU is the system, and Linux is the kernel."
A proud GNU user http://www.gnu.org
Me scribbles at http://www.pravi.co.nr

उत्तर देंअग्रेषित करें

Moinak Ghosh
FOSS-EDU-IN को
और विकल्प Jan 5 (21 घंटे पहले)
प्रवीण् ए (Praveen A) wrote:

> 2006/1/5, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@redhat.com
> <mailto:sundaram@redhat.com>>:
>
> [...]
> tools, Python with a IDE like Eclipse etc might fit the bill
> especially
> for introductory material to programming. Gambas is sort of of like VB
> but I havent really looked into it much yet.
>
>
> I also think python is the way forward. We should try to get python
> into curriculam.

+1. Python is an advanced Object Oriented extensible language that provides
a rich syntax and powerful expresiveness. I have used Python and personally
find it extremely comfortable to use and more powerful than any VB thing.
Though I have not looked at Gambas as well, might be worth looking at
for comparison's sake.

Regards,
Moinak.

>
>
> --
> "GNU is the system, and Linux is the kernel."
> A proud GNU user http://www.gnu.org
> Me scribbles at http://www.pravi.co.nr
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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>
>

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उत्तर देंअग्रेषित करेंMoinak को Gmail में आमंत्रित करें

Tejas Dinkar
FOSS-EDU-IN को
और विकल्प Jan 5 (21 घंटे पहले)
वीण् ए (Praveen A) wrote:

>> I also think python is the way forward. We should try to get python
>> into curriculam.
>
Hmmmm, for some reason I seem to think this is a bad Idea. (yes, I
know... exact opposite of my stand so far)

I think introducing functional programming at that level is not such a
great idea.

If you read the syllabus, it gives the primary objective as:
To Gain Progamming Skills in GUI programming tool and database creation
in RDBMS.

Now python is a cool language, but it's GUI is not so simple to learn.
In fact, I really doubt that you can use pyGTK in windows.

So this again ties us down to one platform. Not windows, but to *nix
platforms. And even if it was platform indepedent, the GUI for python
(at least pyGTK) is really overkill.

Is there some other programming language which can be used to easily
create GUI applications?

Something just like VB, but is foss... And not legally encoumbered....

I was thinking... perhaps PHP?

Instead of designing a GUI, they can design a web application.

Just My Re. 1 (at Today's Rate ... roughly $0.02)

Gja
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उत्तर देंअग्रेषित करें

Rahul Sundaram
<sundaram@redhat.com> FOSS-EDU-IN को
और विकल्प 12:07 am (20 घंटे पहले)
Hi

> Hmmmm, for some reason I seem to think this is a bad Idea. (yes, I
> know... exact opposite of my stand so far)
>
> I think introducing functional programming at that level is not such a
> great idea.

That would be a point of contention. http://www.python.org/sigs/edu-sig/

>
> If you read the syllabus, it gives the primary objective as:
> To Gain Progamming Skills in GUI programming tool and database
> creation in RDBMS.
>
> Now python is a cool language, but it's GUI is not so simple to learn.
> In fact, I really doubt that you can use pyGTK in windows.

Several apps in this list http://pygtk.org/applications.html can run in
Windows pretty well. Alternatively GCJ presents a Free Java
implementation( http://gcc.gnu.org/java/). Has worked pretty well for
Fedora. Ongoing progress for other distributions.

>
> So this again ties us down to one platform. Not windows, but to *nix
> platforms. And even if it was platform indepedent, the GUI for python
> (at least pyGTK) is really overkill.

Why?

>
> Is there some other programming language which can be used to easily
> create GUI applications?
>
> Something just like VB, but is foss... And not legally encoumbered....

It would be require mainstream support including commercially
deployments for CBSE to consider picking it up. Obscure language and
applications wouldnt fit the bill.

>
> I was thinking... perhaps PHP?

What toolkit do you want to combine with PHP?. Its not designed for GUI
applications anyway.

>Instead of designing a GUI, they can design a web application.

Suggesting both a change in syllabus and software at the same time can
be harder to get through.
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उत्तर देंअग्रेषित करेंRahul को Gmail में आमंत्रित करें

Moinak Ghosh
FOSS-EDU-IN को
और विकल्प 12:10 am (20 घंटे पहले)
Tejas Dinkar wrote:

> वीण् ए (Praveen A) wrote:
>
>>> I also think python is the way forward. We should try to get python
>>> into curriculam.
>>
> Hmmmm, for some reason I seem to think this is a bad Idea. (yes, I
> know... exact opposite of my stand so far)
>
> I think introducing functional programming at that level is not such a
> great idea.

Python at it's base is a procedural and object oriented language. It
does have inherent
functional capabilities but a course can be designed to start with
basics and leave the
functional stuff for advanced levels.

> If you read the syllabus, it gives the primary objective as:
> To Gain Progamming Skills in GUI programming tool and database
> creation in RDBMS.
>
> Now python is a cool language, but it's GUI is not so simple to learn.
> In fact, I really doubt that you can use pyGTK in windows.

What about wxPython ? WxWindows is legally unencumbered (LGPL)
cross-platform Object Oriented
GUI tool kit. Or even Tkinter can be used easily. It is lightweight,
stable, easy to use and has been tested
well on *nix and Windows. So this does not tie us down to any
particular platform choice.

> So this again ties us down to one platform. Not windows, but to *nix
> platforms. And even if it was platform indepedent, the GUI for python
> (at least pyGTK) is really overkill.
>
> Is there some other programming language which can be used to easily
> create GUI applications?

Another cross-platform language with GUI that comes to mind is Tcl/Tk. But
I do not feel that it is suited to a programming language course.

> Something just like VB, but is foss... And not legally encoumbered....
>
> I was thinking... perhaps PHP?
>
> Instead of designing a GUI, they can design a web application.

Web programming is a whole new dimension - better kept separate from
a beginner's
programming language course.

I addition I feel IDEs are a bad thing to introduce to a beginner.
That way they never
get to understand the building blocks. A text editor and an
interpreter are good things
to start with. I consider myself lucky because my introduction to
programming started
with BBC Basic language on the BBC Microcomputer (8 bit Motorola
6502 running
at 1 MHz) and from there I have witnessed the entire evolution to
current 3GLs on
multi-core multi-GHz processors.

Just my nibble.

Regards,
Moinak.
- उद्धृत पाठ दिखाएँ -

>
> Just My Re. 1 (at Today's Rate ... roughly $0.02)
>
> Gja
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उत्तर देंअग्रेषित करेंMoinak को Gmail में आमंत्रित करें

Kushal Das
<kushaldas@gmail.com> FOSS-EDU-IN को
और विकल्प 1:17 am (19 घंटे पहले)
On Friday 06 January 2006 00:10, Moinak Ghosh wrote:
> Tejas Dinkar wrote:
> > वीण् ए (Praveen A) wrote:
> >>> I also think python is the way forward. We should try to get python
> >>> into curriculam.
> >
> > Hmmmm, for some reason I seem to think this is a bad Idea. (yes, I
> > know... exact opposite of my stand so far)
> >
> > I think introducing functional programming at that level is not such a
> > great idea.
>
> Python at it's base is a procedural and object oriented language. It
> does have inherent
> functional capabilities but a course can be designed to start with
> basics and leave the
> functional stuff for advanced levels.
Hey, I am going to talk about how to introduce FOSS into current curriculum in
the schools. We can continue discussing wheather Python will be a part of
it or not(my vote for in). But it should be a part in college level. I was
student of West Bengal University of Technology. We used to have a good
syllabus, but of almost no use in professional life. All the colleges are
teaching C & C++ using turbo editors. Most of the B.Tech students there, saw
computer first time in the college lab with C programming.

So, if they started it in gcc(without any IDE), I do believe that they can
understand programming in a better way. If they learn VB first & then python
still they can understand how powerfull it is. Like the Data Structure
syllabus, the coding in C is good, but in the same time if they see its
original power using Python , it will save a lot of time (IDEA taken from :
Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay).

Regards,
Kushal
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उत्तर देंअग्रेषित करें

Tejas Dinkar
FOSS-EDU-IN को
और विकल्प 1:19 am (19 घंटे पहले)
Moinak Ghosh wrote:

> What about wxPython ? WxWindows is legally unencumbered (LGPL)
> cross-platform Object Oriented
> GUI tool kit. Or even Tkinter can be used easily. It is lightweight,
> stable, easy to use and has been tested

See, this is my main concern...

http://www.wxpython.org/test7.py.html

These students will have to write a practical exam on whatever they are
doing. The reason VB is so popular is because you have a square. You
select the text box tool, and draw a text box. Give it a name. There is
no ugly packing. And the commands to execute on click, or on change...
in VB, you just have to double click on a `button`, and it will take you
to a screen where you can give the commands to execute onclick.

That link up there is the second example given. It just draws two text
boxes with the size written in. Yes, the script will make sense in time,
but would YOU be able to memorise the syntax, and the case for each item
in that?

look at this random line:
self.sizeCtrl.SetValue("%s, %s" % (size.width, size.height))

any student will get confused between sizeCtrl.SetValue,
SizeCrtl.SetValue, SizeCtrl.setValue, etc... as a result many will get
stuck on simple things such as this. Which could be fatal in an exam.

Now, could YOU take care of this when you have 5 subjects to worry
about? Not to mention entrance exams such as your IIT-JEE, AIEEE, BITS,
CET, WBJEE, SAT, Manipal, COMED-K... (all of which DO have seperate
syllabus).

Python may be a good thing to hack on as a CBSE project... but you have
to remember that this would take a LOT more time than a project written
in Visual Basic.

Teachers could be trained, I'm not denying it, and this model may work.

But *I* personally feel that we would tax the students a lot. I did not
take infomation science, so it may be different, but this is how the
situation was in CS (with C++).

In any case, I suggest giving students the choice. Those who want to be
safe, may take VB, and those who want to be free can take python.

However, even if they use VB, I just want people to know that there ARE
free alternatives. And I'm sure many schools wil prefer a free RDBMS for
VB to connect to.

And this is something that someone said at FOSS.in:
"""
I'd rather have someone developing free software using Visual Basic,
than Hoarding software written in any FOSS language.

More than encouraging people to use FOSS, we have to teach them the
values behind it. The Process of Developing it. The Idea that you have
the *Freedom* to customise your software. If someone is talking about
FOSS in a school. 99.1415% of the time they will say `so then in 1992, a
student named Linus....`. Nothing else. They will say `Hense linux is
called Free and Open Source. Free because it doesn't cost anything and
Open Source, because you can download the source code`. And that is it.

A good hacker can change his choice of OS and Language in a heartbeat.
It takes much longer to change an ideology
"""

(actually, I made up about 50% of that. But the general statement is valid)
- उद्धृत पाठ दिखाएँ -

Gja
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उत्तर देंअग्रेषित करें

Rahul Sundaram
<sundaram@redhat.com> FOSS-EDU-IN को
और विकल्प 1:23 am (19 घंटे पहले)
Tejas Dinkar wrote:

> Moinak Ghosh wrote:
>
>> What about wxPython ? WxWindows is legally unencumbered (LGPL)
>> cross-platform Object Oriented
>> GUI tool kit. Or even Tkinter can be used easily. It is
>> lightweight, stable, easy to use and has been tested
>
>
> See, this is my main concern...
>
> http://www.wxpython.org/test7.py.html
>
> These students will have to write a practical exam on whatever they
> are doing. The reason VB is so popular is because you have a square.
> You select the text box tool, and draw a text box. Give it a name.
> There is no ugly packing. And the commands to execute on click, or on
> change... in VB, you just have to double click on a `button`, and it
> will take you to a screen where you can give the commands to execute
> onclick.

Eclipse with python plugins or Glade can do something similar. Its
important to differentiate here between VB the language and the
functionality provided by a IDE like Visual Studio.
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उत्तर देंअग्रेषित करेंRahul को Gmail में आमंत्रित करें

Sarath Lakshman
FOSS-EDU-IN को
और विकल्प 7:20 pm (1½ घंटे पहले)
Hi,

Great news. FS in CBSE.

when will FS come to ur SCERT syllabus!! Please see:

http://mm.gnu.org.in/pipermail/fsf-friends/2005-October/

http://mm.gnu.org.in/pipermail/fsf-friends/2005-August/

Find topics:'Need Free software in 11th Class' and 'Which is the standard compiler? Can't we use gcc?'

Really this sounds great.

Instead of VB, its nice to use Gambas. I am a regular Gambas user. I created a lot of small apps using gambas. I was a VB lover. After I got in to GNU/Linux world, Gambas is favourite for me.

There is an another == for VB. Real Basic. but its not GPL. Gambas is far more better than it too :)

My first VB app was a nice Periodic table software. Now I'm working to re-make it using Gambas. It will be out soon. It will be a nice tool for school students. My Periodic table app was a worthy app. A lot of students enjoyed it :))

Happy Gambas programming :)

Regrds,
Sarath Lakshman
www.sarathlakshman.info
- उद्धृत पाठ दिखाएँ -

On 1/5/06, Moinak Ghosh <Moinak.Ghosh@sun.com> wrote:

प्रवीण् ए (Praveen A) wrote:

> 2006/1/5, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@redhat.com
> <mailto:sundaram@redhat.com>>:
>
> [...]
> tools, Python with a IDE like Eclipse etc might fit the bill
> especially
> for introductory material to programming. Gambas is sort of of like VB
> but I havent really looked into it much yet.
>
>
> I also think python is the way forward. We should try to get python
> into curriculam.

+1. Python is an advanced Object Oriented extensible language that provides
a rich syntax and powerful expresiveness. I have used Python and personally
find it extremely comfortable to use and more powerful than any VB thing.
Though I have not looked at Gambas as well, might be worth looking at
for comparison's sake.

Regards,
Moinak.

>
>
> --
> "GNU is the system, and Linux is the kernel."
> A proud GNU user http://www.gnu.org
> Me scribbles at http://www.pravi.co.nr
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>FCI-l mailing list
> FCI-l@wikicities.com
>http://lists.wikicities.com/mailman/listinfo/fci-l
>
>

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CBSE syllabus - Revision history

156.153.254.41: removed all email ids

156.153.254.42: Better formatting

156.153.254.41: the discussion thread

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