FSCI Wiki

Microsoft Tax Refund Quest: Difference between revisions

← Older editNewer edit →
VisualWikitext
summary added
Reformatted the conversation to make it easy to follow.
Line 1: Line 1:
A page for tracking progress of the Microsoft Tax Refund Quest
A page for tracking progress of the Microsoft Tax Refund Quest


Manish from ilug-delhi is leading this initiative. His summary of the events till now
Manish from ILUG-Delhi is leading this initiative.  


== Summary of the conversation till now ==
''See the  [http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/index.html#20990 discussion thread in ILUGD] for the entire conversation''
(Atanu is from Linux for You)
<blockquote>
Atanu> I need some info before I can take this up as a story...
Atanu> I need some info before I can take this up as a story...
</blockquote>


Could you be a little more specific please?
Could you be a little more specific please?


  Atanu> When you buy a pre-bundled Windoze and boot it for
<blockquote>
Atanu> the first time, does this licence pop up, or the
  Atanu> When you buy a pre-bundled Windoze and boot it for the first time, does this licence pop up, or the<br />
  Atanu> machine starts normally, and you have to access
  Atanu> machine starts normally, and you have to accessthe licence somewhere to have a look at it?<br />
Atanu> the licence somewhere to have a look at it?
</blockquote>


You power it up and the second screen (first one is language
You power it up and the second screen (first one is language
Line 22: Line 30:
screen at that stage but it's about 2 megs.
screen at that stage but it's about 2 megs.


@Niyam: Thanks for everything.  Seriously, I couldn't have spread it
----
so far and wide and got involved so many people and publications on my
own.


  Sudev> Manish do not feel that you are being made a murga
@Niyam: Thanks for everything. Seriously, I couldn't have spread it so far and wide and got involved so many people and publications on my own.
Sudev> but "hum tumhare peeche hain" ;-)


:) Thank you.  I really appreciate the sentiment.
----


  Mr. Rao> 1. Most OEMs sell laptops with Linux/DOS preloaded
<blockquote>
Mr. Rao> on them. So you don't *have* to buy a Vista
Sudev> Manish do not feel that you are being made a murga <br />
Mr. Rao> machine.
Sudev> but "hum tumhare peeche hain" ;-)
</blockquote>
 
<nowiki>:)</nowiki> Thank you. I really appreciate the sentiment.
 
----
 
<blockquote>
Mr. Rao> Most OEMs sell laptops with Linux/DOS preloaded <br />
Mr. Rao> on them. So you don't *have* to buy a Vista<br />
Mr. Rao> machine.
</blockquote>


As Dhiraj pointed out, hardware vendors do not offer high-end models
As Dhiraj pointed out, hardware vendors do not offer high-end models
Line 40: Line 56:
(i.e. buy an inferior machine?)  Aage kuan peeche khayee.
(i.e. buy an inferior machine?)  Aage kuan peeche khayee.


Kenneth> I do not see why we should not reward those
----
Kenneth> manufacturers that treat linux with respect and
 
Kenneth> buy hardware from them. Maybe a small sacrifice
<blockquote>
Kenneth> that one will not get the 'exact' config one
Kenneth> I do not see why we should not reward those<br />
Kenneth> wants - but then, that is the price of freedom ...
Kenneth> manufacturers that treat linux with respect and<br />
Kenneth> buy hardware from them. Maybe a small sacrifice<br />
Kenneth> that one will not get the 'exact' config one<br />
Kenneth> wants - but then, that is the price of freedom ...<br />
</blockquote>


If the machine in question suits your needs, absolutely.  But that's
If the machine in question suits your needs, absolutely.  But that's
not the point.  See more below.
not the point.  See more below.


Anupam> Or maybe 'punish' the ones that don't by asking
<blockquote>
Anupam> for refunds.. Just as effective in my opinion and
Anupam> Or maybe 'punish' the ones that don't by asking<br />
Anupam> you can buy whatever machine you want..
Anupam> for refunds.. Just as effective in my opinion and<br />
Anupam> you can buy whatever machine you want..<br />
</blockquote>


I agree except that it's not punishment.  It's just being fair.
I agree except that it's not punishment.  It's just being fair.
----


I compared the refund/credit statements of Windows XP and Windows
I compared the refund/credit statements of Windows XP and Windows
Vista EULAs.
Vista EULAs.


,----[ Windows XP (on a machine with functioning Vista) ]
,----[ Windows XP (on a machine with functioning Vista) ]
| IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL OR USE THE PRODUCT; YOU MAY RETURN
| IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL OR USE THE PRODUCT; YOU MAY RETURN
| IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND.
| IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND.
`----
`----


,----[ Windows Vista (on a "virgin" machine) ]
 
| IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THEM, DO NOT USE THE SOFTWARE. INSTEAD, CONTACT
,----[ Windows Vista (on a "virgin" machine) ]
| THE MANUFACTURER OR INSTALLER TO DETERMINE THEIR RETURN POLICY FOR A
| IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THEM, DO NOT USE THE SOFTWARE. INSTEAD, CONTACT
| REFUND OR CREDIT.
| THE MANUFACTURER OR INSTALLER TO DETERMINE THEIR RETURN POLICY FOR A
`----
| REFUND OR CREDIT.
`----


The choice of words is telling.  Microsoft seems to have left the
The choice of words is telling.  Microsoft seems to have left the
Line 73: Line 98:
case of machines preloaded with Vista.)  And OEMs may conveniently
case of machines preloaded with Vista.)  And OEMs may conveniently
choose not to refund at all!
choose not to refund at all!
----


What galls me are the statements like these:
What galls me are the statements like these:


"Nevertheless, 140 million PCs have sold with paid copies installed."
''[http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/02/technology/Kirkpatrick_Microsoft.fortune/index.htm?section=money_fastforward "Nevertheless, 140 million PCs have sold with paid copies installed."]''
(http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/02/technology/Kirkpatrick_Microsoft.fortune/index.htm?section=money_fastforward)


Paid my foot, I feel I have been pick pocketed by Lenovo on
Paid my foot, I feel I have been pick pocketed by Lenovo on
Line 83: Line 109:
sucking up local goon collecting "hafta" (extortion money) or pick
sucking up local goon collecting "hafta" (extortion money) or pick
pocketing for the don. :)
pocketing for the don. :)
----


From my perspective, the whole issue boils down to these
From my perspective, the whole issue boils down to these
arguments/points to be settled.
arguments/points to be settled.


1. Is it legal for OEMs to bundle software with the machines AND
# Is it legal for OEMs to bundle software with the machines AND charge for it and require consumers to agree to a license before they can use it (after having paid)?
charge for it and require consumers to agree to a license before
# Are the terms of the Windows license (EULA) enforceable in India?
they can use it (after having paid)?
# If a customer does not agree to the license required to use the bundled software, then does/should the consumer have a right to refund?
# Are the terms of the license legally binding on only the paying consumers or also on the vendor (OEM)?
# Can OEMs refuse to be bound by the terms and conditions of a software license _they_ bundled and charged for (agreed they did not author it but they did charge for it)?  If OEMs are exempt then how can the terms be binding on consumer?
# What is the fair price of Windows to be refunded?  In my opinion, it should be at par with the market price or OEMs need to disclose  the price at which they bought licenses (for legal entities to determine the fair price.)


2. Are the terms of the Windows license (EULA) enforceable in India?
In case it turns out that this land does have a fair law and has not sold out to corporates at the expense of consumers, then following is
 
what I expect to get out of this Mahabharat when/if this ends.
3. If a customer does not agree to the license required to use the
bundled software, then does/should the consumer have a right to
refund?


4. Are the terms of the license legally binding on only the paying
== Requirements ==
consumers or also on the vendor (OEM)?


5. Can OEMs refuse to be bound by the terms and conditions of a
=== Short term/this specific case ===
software license _they_ bundled and charged for (agreed they did
not author it but they did charge for it)?  If OEMs are exempt then
how can the terms be binding on consumer?


6. What is the fair price of Windows to be refunded?  In my opinion,
# A formal (verbal/written) apology from Lenovo.
it should be at par with the market price or OEMs need to disclose
# Refund from Lenovo.
the price at which they bought licenses (for legal entities to
determine the fair price.)


In case it turns out that this land does have a fair law and has not
=== Long term/general case ===
sold out to corporates at the expense of consumers, then following is
what I expect to get out of this Mahabharat when/if this ends.


Short term/this specific case
-----------------------------
1. A formal (verbal/written) apology from Lenovo.
2. Refund from Lenovo.


Long term/general case
* OEMs required by law to provide "No OS" option on all machines (No, I do not want to purchase or be force fed Novell Linux either.)
----------------------


3a. OEMs required by law to provide "No OS" option on all machines
Or at the very least
(No, I do not want to purchase or be force fed Novell Linux
either.)


Or at the very least
* Legal requirements binding on OEMs to document, print and distribute the timebound and simple refund process (along with the cost that will be refunded) _with_ the machines; may be distributed as part of the user manual or as a separate pamphlet but _with_ the machine (not just hidden behind tons of links on their website).


3b. Legal requirements binding on OEMs to document, print and
distribute the timebound and simple refund process (along with the
cost that will be refunded) _with_ the machines; may be distributed
as part of the user manual or as a separate pamphlet but _with_ the
machine (not just hidden behind tons of links on their website).


So I guess there are going to be two parts to this effort/fight: short
So I guess there are going to be two parts to this effort/fight: short
Line 149: Line 157:
-- Manish
-- Manish


* [http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/index.html#20990 Discussion thread in ilug-delhi]


Related articles:
 
== Related articles ==


* [http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/19/0154224  French Judge Orders Refund For Pre-Installed XP]
* [http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/19/0154224  French Judge Orders Refund For Pre-Installed XP]
Retrieved from "https://wiki.fsci.in/Microsoft_Tax_Refund_Quest"